Interview with Moazzam Begg

‘Enemy combatants': Age is not a determining factor

I'm sitting in a café in Camden opposite one of the most dangerous terrorists in the world. Or at least, that's what the Pentagon would have me believe. Arrested from his home in Pakistan in February 2002, Moazzam Begg was held by the Americans in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay for nearly three years, much of the time in solitary confinement. Treated as one of the 'worst of the worst' terrorists on earth, he experienced brutality and humiliation at the hands of his captors before being released without charge in January this year. Begg speaks to The Muslim Weekly about child prisoners in the ‘War on Terror' and the British citizens who are in danger of being forgotten in the infamous prison camp.

Hafiza Akhtar: Last week the Muslim Weekly raised the issue of child detainees with the U.S. State Department. In an e-mail, a defence spokesman denied that there were any children under 18 in the jail. Did you meet any child detainees in detention?

Moazzam Begg: There was at least one case of a Canadian detainee who is known as O.K. as he's a minor, but his name is Omar al Khadri. I met him and I spent several months with him in Bagram.

HA: How did you know he was underage?

MB: First of all from the guards telling me himself, and from himself, from his own mouth he told me he'd just turned 15. This was in Summer 2002. He'd come into Bagram, severely wounded. He'd been shot several times and had shrapnel wounds all over his body. He had to be operated on. He had stitches all over his chest and back and difficulty seeing at all.

The case of O.K. is one of those that have been brought up in Habeas Corpus cases presented to the US Supreme and district courts whereby the government did not deny the fact that he is a minor. They said and I quote, "that point about O.K. being a minor is now moot" as he has turned 18 since he was taken into custody. Therefore they admit that he was a minor when he was taken into custody.

I met four minors altogether in 2002, in Bagram. The first of them was this young Afghan kid called Shams. He spent several months with me in a cell. He'd been shot in his upper thigh area and was unable to walk. He told me his age at the time was 15 years old. The rules over there didn't allow us to get up and walk or talk to anyone, but because I was given the task of trying to help him, I was allowed to put my arm around his shoulder and to walk up and down the cell. That was the first person. The second person was Omar Khadri, who I've already mentioned. The third and the fourth people were two brothers. One I believe was around 11 years old and the other was about 13 or 14. Now these two kids were held in separate rooms from everyone else and one of them was sent to Guantanamo and the other one was left in Bagram. I remember, just before they sent us to Guantanamo, these two brothers were given the opportunity to talk to each other for a few minutes. They were both in tears because one was going and one was staying.

It was obvious that they were children – especially the younger one. He was tiny with a childlike face, childlike actions. The guards were quite aware of this.

HA: Why were they being held there?

MB: I don't know why – there were all types of stories. One of the stories I heard was that the Americans were claiming that they were protecting them from warlords – but if that was the case then why were they sending them to Guantanamo, why were they shackling them and hooding them like everyone else? Another story was that they'd thrown stones or grenades at the Americans. But I don't know what the truth is...

HA: The Afghan kid who was sent to Guantanamo, was he sent to Camp Iguana, the so-called 'soft' children's camp?

MB: He might have been, I don't know.

HA: what do you think of this statement, which we received from the U.S. State Department:

‘Age is not a determining factor in detention. We detain enemy combatants, those who are engaged in armed conflict against us or are providing material support to others who are fighting us. It's unfortunate, but the reality is that some countries rely on child warriors to conduct combat.'

MB: They are clearly realising that they feel concerned about being accused of having under 16s, as they deny having any – which is not the case. It is clearly true at least in the case of Omar Khadri. Then they say that age is not a determining factor. That's right. We've already seen that age is not a determining factor. Because I saw, on the lower end of the scale children in custody and on the upper end of the scale, they did a very good job of capturing 'Taliban' octogenarians and geriatrics. I saw people in custody who were well over 90 years old.

HA: Was this in Kandhar and Bagram? How about in Guantanamo?

MB: In Kandhar and Bagram. I didn't see anyone in Gitmo, as I was in solitary confinement the whole time.

I joked with the guards about it quite often in Afghanistan, saying, "I'm the youngest people in my cell!" After me the next youngest would be about 60 and everybody else would be older than 60. The guards were sometimes very embarrassed about it. There was one old guy who looked like he was at least 90 years old. He used to walk with his back bent, like he needed a Zimmer frame. He had a hearing aid which they took away as it might 'compromise security'

So, clearly age is not a factor as far as they are concerned.

When they say children are taking up arms. I read a book once called Black Hawk Down by Mark Bowden and he quotes U.S. soldiers in there saying that during the Somalia conflict that we shot children who were 5 and six years old because we thought they were holding weapons. They had no qualms about that. America is just telling on itself. They are clearly not concerned with capturing, killing or arresting children regardless of the situation, whether they are fighting or not based on their own determinations.

HA: How were the guards behaving with the kids?

MB: Omar Khadri was treated very badly in front of me and the reason was that they claimed that he had killed a US soldier. Who knows what really happened, as he has had no opportunity to present the real case of whatever happened. But he came out of it really, severely wounded. He had to go through several operations. Once the guards heard that there was a rumour that there was someone who was supposed to be responsible for the killing of a soldier, they would shout and scream at him, take him out of his cell and make him do menial duties – make him carry boxes around, make him carry water, make him sweep up...he was just a child. Very frail, very quiet, very well behaved – never raised his voice. And to top it all, he was very terribly wounded – disabled, even.

HA: Do you know if Omar was put in Camp Iguana when he was taken to Guantanamo?

MB: Not as far as I know. From what I have heard, he is now in Camp V, which is the worst place. Clearly this statement from the US Defence Spokesman shows that they don't consider 'child warriors' as they call them, a problem in that they have no qualms about killing or capturing them and treating them as enemy combatants.

HA: There are still 'British residents' being held in Guantanamo, who were living the UK but don't have full UK citizenship. After the release of yourself and the eight other Britons, it seems they are in danger of being forgotten. What do you know about them?

MB: Just on a personal level, I have met with the families of two of the remaining British resident's families – those of Shakir Ahmad and Jamil al Banna. Shakir's child was born at around the same time as my own; so understand what the family is going through. They're having it very tough. The family of Jamil al Banna is also having a very difficult time. It's a large family of five children. I'm in contact with his wife quite frequently and she's an amazing, brave woman. It's very hard for her as she's not a native and again, because she's not from this country.

Because these guys [the British residents] don't have British nationality, the government has shirked any responsibility they took on when they granted these people either leave to remain in the country or political asylum. They've completely washed their hands of them and left them to rot in this limbo. They can't return to their own countries, as most of them were political refugees to begin with, so where do they go? They were taken by force and are being held with no end in sight.

The legal process in America has revealed itself to be completely inadequate. It hasn't produced any results at all, despite the Supreme Court decision that was passed. This stated that people had the right, either to be produced in front of the courts, told what they are supposed to have done or just sent home. None of that has come through.

HA: Is that because they are saying that Guantanamo is not US territory?

MB: No, no, you see, the Supreme Court ruled that that it is, that the court does have jurisdiction over Guantanamo. The government is arguing that even though the courts have jurisdiction, the detainees have no rights.

People are itching to go to court – they want to be told what they're supposed to have done or if they can't be told, they want to be sent home. But they're not going to be allowed to do either of those things. Because – and I think the US government is quite clear about this – if just one person was to get to court and be able to tell the truth about what is happening, then everything would collapse for them. The whole of Guantanamo would have to be closed down.

HA: How do you feel about those people still in Guantanamo when you think about them?

MB: I feel really bad – there's an obvious sense of guilt. I think about them and pray for them every single day. It's very close to me and I don't know what to do about it. They should be at home with their families.

I believe unconditionally, irrevocably that the place should be closed down. Everyone who's been held there should be compensated. You can't compensate people for three years of torture, beatings and isolation, psychological torture. Everyone needs to be returned to their families. Who knows how they'll react after four years to their families? Particularly the families where there are children involved. If the Americans have no compassion towards the lives of the people they've destroyed, then they should at least consider the children of those people.

America claims to be fighting for freedom – this is not freedom, it's the opposite of freedom. Incarcerating people isn't freedom. America was free to begin with. America's freedom was never at stake – what was at stake was some of their national security issues. The terminology here is used to dupe and fool people.

HA: Has the Foreign and Commonwealth Office taken any action on their behalf?

MB: There have been one or two meetings – before this it seemed that the FCO were denying that they had any kind of responsibility at all. The wife of Jamil al Banna was approached by the FCO after years of pleading that they make some sort of representation for him. The FCO finally agreed to have a meeting, which was something of a breakthrough. It was before the election, which is telling. It seems now that they might have moved a couple of millimetres to say that we might possibly be able to make a representation on their behalf.

HA: What can the public in Britain do to help the remaining British residents?

MB: When my father was mounting my campaign, he tried to get confirmation from numerous MPs that they would argue in favour of my being released or charged, but not kept indefinitely.

We must not forget about them. The UK has a responsibility towards these people because they have acknowledged the right of these people to live in the UK or they wouldn't have let them in.

‘My bitterness is directed where it's necessary'

HA: I've noticed from other interviews you have given and from having heard you speak publicly, that you are perhaps surprisingly fair when you talk about the Americans. There seems to be a real lack of bitterness and animosity in the way you feel about them.

MB: My bitterness and animosity is directed where it's necessary. If you look at the poetry I write, you'll see it's very scathing, very powerful against the Americans. Also I think it's very important to be as unbiased as possible. Because I don't believe in responding to the Americans the way they have responded to me. I don't judge myself by the principles that they've set up – I judge myself by my own principles. So it's very important for me to be balanced so that when I do speak, my voice has some substance and doesn't sound like the ravings of a lunatic. And my experience is also that that there were people amongst the American soldiers who did treat me really well and it would be unjust to say that they didn't.

But at the same time there were experiences and things that I witnessed that go beyond how any human should treat another, which were perpetrated by the American soldiers. I saw them commit murders. I saw them do some really terrible heinous things. Quite rightly, as one of the US senators recently said that had you not known that American forces had done this, you would have thought it was the Nazis, or the Soviets under Stalin. He has since retracted his statement – but I think he was absolutely right.

HA: You've said before that some of the guards have become very disillusioned and are no longer buying into the system.

MB: No, no of course not. There is a book, which has been recently released by a guy called Erik Saar, which I have recently read. He states quite clearly a lot of things, which are well known. I didn't meet him – I never met with interpreters as I obviously speak English.

He was only there for six months but he began to question a lot of things, which he saw. I am sure he must have been attacked by many of the right wing neo cons for what he did. But he would be the tip of the iceberg.

What the US military average soldier would say in public and in private are two completely different things, because they are under, huge, severe peer pressure – it's not like an ordinary student going out and protesting, saying ‘we think what our government is going is wrong.' When a soldier does it, he or she could be facing a court martial, prison – all sorts of accusations. We've seen what happens with the US military, amongst itself. How they imprisoned and falsely accused the army chaplain who was found to be completely innocent and his reputation was destroyed.

HA: Do you think Guantanamo has become an embarrassment to the US?

MB: Obviously – two former Presidents of the US have said publicly that it should be closed down or cleared up. Even Senators from the Republican Party have said it should be closed down. It's something that is clearly a violation of America, by America against people who are not Americans because anyone who is arrested in the war on terror, who has American nationality, is not in Guantanamo. That means the rest of the world, regardless what you are supposed to have done or not, is discriminated against for not being an American.

Take the case of John Walker Lindh – he was taken to America. He had a trial and access to the legal system. But with Guantanamo, America is saying that it doesn't believe in law, in IHL in the GCs – nothing. All that applies to the detainees is Bush's military order.

HA: Do you think that the War on Terror is actually a war against Islam?

MB: I never used to jump on the bandwagon of saying that. But when I look at history and at the common denominators – then that's it. When I was held in Bagram, all the cells had names. Some of them I understood, to some degree. One was the Twin Towers, one was USS Cole. The Pentagon. Then there was Somalia, Libya, Lebanon. What do all these have in common? What has Somalia got to do with Al Qaeda?

Lebanon was in 1982 – there was an incident when a shi'ite bomber killed 200 Americans in a marine barracks. What has that possibly got to do with the modern War on Terror? Libya – Colonel Gadaffi – that was in the 80s. They bombed that as retaliation for some Americans who got killed in Europe. So again the common denominator always seems to be that it's Muslim countries. Now to be fair, the Americans did take and active role against the Serbs in both Bosnian and Kosovan conflicts, which the Europeans didn't, even though it was a European conflict and they should have dealt with it. But those two cases aside, and especially after 9/11, they've joined hands with the Russians at least in condemning the Chechens, despite the fact that that is another occupation. So wherever you look, you find that the Americans have all but declared a war against Islam.

HA: Why do you think they're so afraid of Islam?

MB: I think it's a classic clash of civilisations. Here's an example. When they asked for the surrender of OBL, after 911, they asked for the Taliban to unconditionally hand him over. The Taliban said, you give us some evidence and we'll do that. But I remember something that is often forgotten. The Taliban said, ‘we'll present him to you in an Islamic court.' The Americans said no. By saying this they completely rejected not just the Taliban, but also the entire Islamic legal system. They said the only way was for him (OBL) to be brought to an American court. So there was an arrogance there already which has been accentuated by America's attitude towards the Muslim world. One of the worst nightmares for America – or for the western world in general – is to see a unified, Islamic block, which I don't think is likely to happen for a long time. Bush's comment that ‘this crusade is going to take a while' is telling.

In many ways Muslims are now having to take a very defensive position about their belief in pro-active or offensive jihad. The reality is now that if anyone say the word with jihad, it's synonymous with war and killing and so forth, but I believe that it's completely legitimate in places like Bosnia, Kashmir and Chechnya, where people are being occupied and being thrown out of their own and have no choice but to fight for survival. The Americans utilise that terminology to their own benefit in the war on terror.

HA: You spent nearly three years in solitary confinement. How did you manage to get through it?

MB: I came to a point when I told myself, I'm going to utilise this time to my maximum benefit.

HA: What were you allowed to have?

MB: I was allowed some books and the books that I couldn't get, I'd get from the guards without permission, obviously. I did get caught a couple of time with contraband books, but I never let on that the guards had given them to me. That aside, I wrote poetry, kept myself physically fit, I did hundreds of press-ups and sit-ups every day, I memorised a lot of the Qu'ran and I wrote lists of what I planned to do. I wrote the name of every country in the world I could remember and its capital city, I started writing a list of every word in French I could possibly remember, every word in Latin. I wrote a list of the periodic table of elements – all sorts of things like that. So that I could keep my mind exercised. If the soldiers cared to do so, I'd engage them in some kind of conversation and debate with them sometimes.

HA: As a Muslim how did you reconcile what was happening to you with your beliefs? Did you find yourself asking Allah (SWT) why this was happening to you?

MB: All the time. A lot of it is to do with qadr, predestination. As a Muslim, you are required to belief in fate unquestionably. You don't ask about the how or the why of this, you just accept your destiny. The problem I had with this before was that I believed it, but couldn't apply it to my practical life. But in incarceration, I was resigned to my fate, which was that I was going to be held there for a long time and I couldn't see any way out of it. So although I already believed in fate, I didn't understand its context until I was incarcerated.

I suppose I also saw it as a test. If you consider the prophets, every single prophet has been tested. All people, all human beings face tests in their life at some point. I thought, perhaps this is my ultimate one. Maybe there are others?

I was certainly aware from being a practising Muslim, from having met people who've either known people who've been incarcerated or have been themselves, in different places around the world – refugees, of which there is an abundance of in the UK – they've all been through some terrible times, so putting that into context I thought, it's really not that bad. They're not pulling my fingernails out; they're not electrocuting me – although they threatened to do that several times, as well as threatening to execute me.

HA: So do you think that everything that happened to you happened for a reason? As part of your destiny?

MB: Yes, I think so. There is a dream that I saw in 1994, when my wife was pregnant with our first child. In the dream there was myself and several others – one of them was my Arabic teacher – and we were in a cage and it was all concertina wire and razor wire around us. There were cameras trained on us, and machine guns wherever we looked, left or right. I asked one of the brothers, ‘how long are we going to take this humiliation?' and he said, ‘Patience brother, patience.' And all of a sudden the machine guns started firing and everyone started dropping, started being killed and somebody shouted to me, ‘Moazzam, your child is going to be born' and I knew in my heart that I wouldn't be able to be present for the birth of my child. And then my view became like an overhead view and I saw myself and I saw all these bodies falling around me and I screamed out the adhan and it spread around the world, everywhere. Then I raised my hands towards the heavens to make dua and they stretched up into the sky, going up and up past the clouds and I began to cry and said ‘O Allah, relieve us from the tribulation and humiliation.' I woke up from the dream crying. My wife woke up and asked me ‘are you ok' and I was sobbing like a baby. And I told her the dream. This was before my first child. I didn't make too much of it. I don't have many dreams, that's why I remembered it.

When I was in Bagram, surrounded by concertina wire, with guards walking up and down with machine guns, I wrote to my wife and said in Arabic – the dream came true. The only bit I didn't understand was the adhan. But now I understand it because my voice has gone everywhere, in a way that it could never have done before. I've been propelled into a position that I could never have been in before, which is having become some sort of a spokesman I feel some responsibility to talk about things, in Britain.